Talk:Lucifer's Cage

A drunk Sam Winchester told a drunk Bobby that Lucifer couldn't be lured back to his cage easily. So, Sam openly devised a quick plan and iterated it to Bobby. Sam thought that he could possibly consent to Lucifer's possession, and with much determination he could resist Satan’s evil energy for a brief moment; Sam thought that if his plan worked it would give him time to jump into Lucifer's cage with Lucifer inside of him; this would ultimately result in a courageous/self-sacrificing act on Sam's part.

Anderson Writer, APRIL 30th 2010

Lucifer's cage is not hell. Or not the same hell. The hell demons are made in is obviously not intended to keep anybody in permanently: Meg got out without benefit of a devil's gate at least once. And opening the devil's gate in Wyoming, while enough to bust Lilith out (and Azazel made a point of saying she'd be nearly impossible to get out), didn't even come close to opening Lucifer's cage.

Lucifer's cage is closely connected to hell, I'm sure. Ben Edlund said at Comic-Con 2009 that Lucifer's the power source for the demon-creating machine. But not so closely that anybody can get from one to the other without getting up to earth in between; see also how much trouble Azazel had finding somewhere to open the cage from. And Sam's time in the cage is doubtless just as fun as Dean's time in hell, so it makes sense that Dean would compare the two. But hell and the cage cannot be the same place.

My personal bet re Lucifer's cage: For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4. The word translated 'hell' here, Tartarus, appears nowhere else in the New Testament, and here it's specifically referring to the punishment of angels; everywhere else in the NT that I can think of, the word translated 'hell' is Gehenna or Hades and either way it's somewhere only dead people go.

(The sentence that starts at verse 4 ends at verse 9, which has fascinating implications for S6: if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.)

—EllieMurasaki 03:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Sera Gamble herself confirmed that Lucifer's Cage is indeed in Hell, the lowest and worst circle of Hell to be exact. Lucifer also states that God "had Michael cast me into Hell" in The End. In Swan Song, Dean states that Sam's Hell (the Cage) would make his own tour look like "Graceland". There have been several instances where it has been made abundantly clear that the Cage is indeed a part of Hell, the worst part at that.

Lucifer (The End): You know why God cast me down? Because I loved him. More than anything. And then God created... You. The little...hairless apes. And then he asked all of us to bow down before you—to love you, more than him. And I said, "Father, I can't." I said, "These human beings are flawed, murderous." And for that, God had Michael cast me into Hell. Now, tell me, does the punishment fit the crime? Especially, when I was right? Look at what six billion of you have done to this thing, and how many of you blame me for it.

Dean (to Sam in Swan Song): Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland.

In a recent interview with Sera Gamble, I quote:

Questioner: So for a year, Dean thought Sam was dead, or locked in a cage in Hell?

Sera Gamble: “Yeah, [he thought] that was it. There’s no way to get your brother out of the cage at the bottom of the lowest depths of the ninth circle of the worst bit of Hell.”

Don't believe it? See <http://supernaturalfansonline.com/2010/08/02/new-sera-gamble-interview-spoilers/> for more details. It has been established and made fairly obvious throughout from several characters that the Cage is indeed a part of Hell, the most famous part in fact. Lucifer1987 07:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I feel like I'm saying the District of Columbia and the state containing Seattle are different places, however much they have in common, and you're saying Washington is Washington is Washington. —EllieMurasaki 12:30, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Good grief, have you not just read what I posted? It is confirmed that Lucifer's Cage is a "part" of Hell, located at the very bottom of the lowest circle of Hell. Obviously Hell is divided up into circles in Supernatural, similar to how it is in the Divine Comedy. Sheesh, it's not that hard to figure out. Washington State and Washinton D.C. are two completely different places that are named as such to keep their meanings from being confused. Hell on the other hand is Hell, there's only one obviously, and it is divided up into sections. As I say, it doesn't take a mental genius to figure it out when connecting the dots. Lucifer1987 17:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

The people who do the research for Supernatural include somebody who looked up how to say 'go get blown by a goat' in Enochian. I find it extremely difficult to believe that they wouldn't know that there are three different words in the New Testament that all translate to 'hell' in English but that all mean distinctly different things in the original. I'm with the crowd who thinks that when Jesus says 'if you do X you're going to hell' where the original word is Gehenna, he means 'if you do X you're throwing your life away', since that word derives from the Valley of Hinnom which was basically Jerusalem's landfill, but there's still everywhere the New Testament says Hades and there's still the one place the New Testament says Tartarus, which are both Greek conceptions of the underworld that have not a hell of a lot to do with each other except that Zeus says in the Iliad that Tartarus is as far below Hades as heaven is above earth. It is not in the least obvious that there is only one hell. And the ways to get in and out of hell and of the cage are so very different that I find it very hard to believe they're the same place. I really am hearing you say 'obviously Washington means the District of Columbia' and ignoring the possibility that we're talking about Washington State. —EllieMurasaki 18:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, let's get something straight: In the Divine Comedy, which Supernatural's version of Hell is apparently based upon, all your other theories/mythology were incorporated into the Judeo-Christian realm known as "Hell". Lucifer's Cage, known as Cocytus or more specifically Judecca, was the ninth and lowest circle of Hell, the circle of traitors. We have clear indication from Sera Gamble and numerous in-series characters that the Cage is a part of "Hell", the Judeo-Christian realm, and no other "Hell" is ever mentioned. Therefore, going off of what is known at present, it's been laid to rest that Lucifer's Cage is indeed a part of Hell. If they have fashioned Supernatural's version of "Hell" upon the Divine Comedy, as appears so due to Gamble's statements, then yes, it is VERY obvious. You see, when the Executive Producer of the show states a clear answer to a question, it's taken to be canon barring future recants. As of now, Gamble's statement is that Lucifer's Cage is a part of Hell. Case closed.

P.S. We never see "Zeus" or hear of "Tartarus" in the series, therefore until we do, there is no confirmation that in Supernatural-verse they even exist. All we have is a handful of Gods that appeared in Hammer of the Gods, but we have no idea if there were any others out there. Therefore, all the theory you mentioned is not canon until some confirmation of such topics exists in Supernatural-verse. Also, Anna Milton states, when we first see her that "Lilith is trying to break the 66 Seals to free Lucifer from Hell..." Here is yet another confirmation that Lucifer's Cage is located in the Judeo-Christian realm of Hell. Lucifer1987 20:09, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

There are multiple conceptions of hell. There are even multiple Christian conceptions of hell. If the author of 2 Peter meant the same version of hell as all the other authors of the New Testament, he would have used the word Hades, like all the others did, not the word Tartarus, which he's the only NT author who did. Any one-word translation of either term into English ends up 'hell', which is hardly the only time something gets lost in translation. (French speakers, I'm reliably informed, have different words for pain centered in the stomach and pain centered in the liver. English speakers describe both as 'stomachache'.) And if we're going with Dante's version, which is not a given because what's actually in the show trumps what's said about the show and what's actually in the show doesn't bear much resemblance to Dante's version (hint, in Dante's version the tortured have no option of becoming the torturers), what it takes to get to the first circle and back and what it takes to get to the ninth circle and back differ in degree, not in kind. What it takes to get in and out of the Dean-and-demons hell and what it takes to get in and out of Lucifer's cage differ in kind.

...you're seriously arguing that just because we haven't seen Zeus in the series, he doesn't exist? Wow. —EllieMurasaki 20:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I bloody well am arguing that "simply because we haven't seen Zeus in the series" that he MAY not exist in Supernatural-verse. Until we have seen him, we cannot assume that he does. We have seen Mercury, one single God from that branch, and that alone does not prove that the others exist in the canon of this series. There is even an instance where Castiel confirms that there is a discrepancy in even the Bible, which describes the Anti-Christ as Lucifer's son, while in the canon of Supernatural the Anti-Christ or Cambion is merely demon-spawn. Therefore, we cannot simply assume that everything from the real-world lore holds water in Supernatural-verse. We have seen Death, but we have not seen Azrael, the so-called "Angel of Death" spoken of in lore. Simply b/c we have seen Death the Horseman does not mean we can assume that there even is an Azrael in the continuity of the series. Simply b/c we have seen Odin does not mean we can assume that all the other Norse gods exist in the continuity of the series. They speak of Vallhalla, but there is no mention of any other Norse gods, and without official confirmation of that, we cannot simply assume they all exist just b/c we have seen one such god. And no amount of theory-ridden explanations will change that or the fact that we have confirmation where Lucifer's Cage is located, in the Judeo-Christian realm of Hell. Case closed. Lucifer1987 21:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, for... We do not actually have such confirmation. We do have lots and lots of mutually contradictory interpretations of the Christian idea of hell, and we have no shortage of in-show evidence that the demon-creation machine and Lucifer's cage are different interpretations of the Christian idea of hell. And I am at a total loss for how Sam and Dean can possibly have met every god that exists in Supernaturalverse. —EllieMurasaki 23:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)