Talk:Lucifer's Cage

A drunk Sam Winchester told a drunk Bobby that Lucifer couldn't be lured back to his cage easily. So, Sam openly devised a quick plan and iterated it to Bobby. Sam thought that he could possibly consent to Lucifer's possession, and with much determination he could resist Satan’s evil energy for a brief moment; Sam thought that if his plan worked it would give him time to jump into Lucifer's cage with Lucifer inside of him; this would ultimately result in a courageous/self-sacrificing act on Sam's part.

Anderson Writer, APRIL 30th 2010

Lucifer's cage is not hell. Or not the same hell. The hell demons are made in is obviously not intended to keep anybody in permanently: Meg got out without benefit of a devil's gate at least once. And opening the devil's gate in Wyoming, while enough to bust Lilith out (and Azazel made a point of saying she'd be nearly impossible to get out), didn't even come close to opening Lucifer's cage.

Lucifer's cage is closely connected to hell, I'm sure. Ben Edlund said at Comic-Con 2009 that Lucifer's the power source for the demon-creating machine. But not so closely that anybody can get from one to the other without getting up to earth in between; see also how much trouble Azazel had finding somewhere to open the cage from. And Sam's time in the cage is doubtless just as fun as Dean's time in hell, so it makes sense that Dean would compare the two. But hell and the cage cannot be the same place.

My personal bet re Lucifer's cage: For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4. The word translated 'hell' here, Tartarus, appears nowhere else in the New Testament, and here it's specifically referring to the punishment of angels; everywhere else in the NT that I can think of, the word translated 'hell' is Gehenna or Hades and either way it's somewhere only dead people go.

(The sentence that starts at verse 4 ends at verse 9, which has fascinating implications for S6: if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.)

—EllieMurasaki 03:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Sera Gamble herself confirmed that Lucifer's Cage is indeed in Hell, the lowest and worst circle of Hell to be exact. Lucifer also states that God "had Michael cast me into Hell" in The End. In Swan Song, Dean states that Sam's Hell (the Cage) would make his own tour look like "Graceland". There have been several instances where it has been made abundantly clear that the Cage is indeed a part of Hell, the worst part at that.

Lucifer (The End): You know why God cast me down? Because I loved him. More than anything. And then God created... You. The little...hairless apes. And then he asked all of us to bow down before you—to love you, more than him. And I said, "Father, I can't." I said, "These human beings are flawed, murderous." And for that, God had Michael cast me into Hell. Now, tell me, does the punishment fit the crime? Especially, when I was right? Look at what six billion of you have done to this thing, and how many of you blame me for it.

Dean (to Sam in Swan Song): Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland.

In a recent interview with Sera Gamble, I quote:

Questioner: So for a year, Dean thought Sam was dead, or locked in a cage in Hell?

Sera Gamble: “Yeah, [he thought] that was it. There’s no way to get your brother out of the cage at the bottom of the lowest depths of the ninth circle of the worst bit of Hell.”

Don't believe it? See <http://supernaturalfansonline.com/2010/08/02/new-sera-gamble-interview-spoilers/> for more details. It has been established and made fairly obvious throughout from several characters that the Cage is indeed a part of Hell, the most famous part in fact. Lucifer1987 07:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I feel like I'm saying the District of Columbia and the state containing Seattle are different places, however much they have in common, and you're saying Washington is Washington is Washington. —EllieMurasaki 12:30, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Good grief, have you not just read what I posted? It is confirmed that Lucifer's Cage is a "part" of Hell, located at the very bottom of the lowest circle of Hell. Obviously Hell is divided up into circles in Supernatural, similar to how it is in the Divine Comedy. Sheesh, it's not that hard to figure out. Washington State and Washinton D.C. are two completely different places that are named as such to keep their meanings from being confused. Hell on the other hand is Hell, there's only one obviously, and it is divided up into sections. As I say, it doesn't take a mental genius to figure it out when connecting the dots. Lucifer1987 17:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

The people who do the research for Supernatural include somebody who looked up how to say 'go get blown by a goat' in Enochian. I find it extremely difficult to believe that they wouldn't know that there are three different words in the New Testament that all translate to 'hell' in English but that all mean distinctly different things in the original. I'm with the crowd who thinks that when Jesus says 'if you do X you're going to hell' where the original word is Gehenna, he means 'if you do X you're throwing your life away', since that word derives from the Valley of Hinnom which was basically Jerusalem's landfill, but there's still everywhere the New Testament says Hades and there's still the one place the New Testament says Tartarus, which are both Greek conceptions of the underworld that have not a hell of a lot to do with each other except that Zeus says in the Iliad that Tartarus is as far below Hades as heaven is above earth. It is not in the least obvious that there is only one hell. And the ways to get in and out of hell and of the cage are so very different that I find it very hard to believe they're the same place. I really am hearing you say 'obviously Washington means the District of Columbia' and ignoring the possibility that we're talking about Washington State. —EllieMurasaki 18:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, let's get something straight: In the Divine Comedy, which Supernatural's version of Hell is apparently based upon, all your other theories/mythology were incorporated into the Judeo-Christian realm known as "Hell". Lucifer's Cage, known as Cocytus or more specifically Judecca, was the ninth and lowest circle of Hell, the circle of traitors. We have clear indication from Sera Gamble and numerous in-series characters that the Cage is a part of "Hell", the Judeo-Christian realm, and no other "Hell" is ever mentioned. Therefore, going off of what is known at present, it's been laid to rest that Lucifer's Cage is indeed a part of Hell. If they have fashioned Supernatural's version of "Hell" upon the Divine Comedy, as appears so due to Gamble's statements, then yes, it is VERY obvious. You see, when the Executive Producer of the show states a clear answer to a question, it's taken to be canon barring future recants. As of now, Gamble's statement is that Lucifer's Cage is a part of Hell. Case closed.

P.S. We never see "Zeus" or hear of "Tartarus" in the series, therefore until we do, there is no confirmation that in Supernatural-verse they even exist. All we have is a handful of Gods that appeared in Hammer of the Gods, but we have no idea if there were any others out there. Therefore, all the theory you mentioned is not canon until some confirmation of such topics exists in Supernatural-verse. Also, Anna Milton states, when we first see her that "Lilith is trying to break the 66 Seals to free Lucifer from Hell..." Here is yet another confirmation that Lucifer's Cage is located in the Judeo-Christian realm of Hell. Lucifer1987 20:09, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

There are multiple conceptions of hell. There are even multiple Christian conceptions of hell. If the author of 2 Peter meant the same version of hell as all the other authors of the New Testament, he would have used the word Hades, like all the others did, not the word Tartarus, which he's the only NT author who did. Any one-word translation of either term into English ends up 'hell', which is hardly the only time something gets lost in translation. (French speakers, I'm reliably informed, have different words for pain centered in the stomach and pain centered in the liver. English speakers describe both as 'stomachache'.) And if we're going with Dante's version, which is not a given because what's actually in the show trumps what's said about the show and what's actually in the show doesn't bear much resemblance to Dante's version (hint, in Dante's version the tortured have no option of becoming the torturers), what it takes to get to the first circle and back and what it takes to get to the ninth circle and back differ in degree, not in kind. What it takes to get in and out of the Dean-and-demons hell and what it takes to get in and out of Lucifer's cage differ in kind.

...you're seriously arguing that just because we haven't seen Zeus in the series, he doesn't exist? Wow. —EllieMurasaki 20:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I bloody well am arguing that "simply because we haven't seen Zeus in the series" that he MAY not exist in Supernatural-verse. Until we have seen him, we cannot assume that he does. We have seen Mercury, one single God from that branch, and that alone does not prove that the others exist in the canon of this series. There is even an instance where Castiel confirms that there is a discrepancy in even the Bible, which describes the Anti-Christ as Lucifer's son, while in the canon of Supernatural the Anti-Christ or Cambion is merely demon-spawn. Therefore, we cannot simply assume that everything from the real-world lore holds water in Supernatural-verse. We have seen Death, but we have not seen Azrael, the so-called "Angel of Death" spoken of in lore. Simply b/c we have seen Death the Horseman does not mean we can assume that there even is an Azrael in the continuity of the series. Simply b/c we have seen Odin does not mean we can assume that all the other Norse gods exist in the continuity of the series. They speak of Vallhalla, but there is no mention of any other Norse gods, and without official confirmation of that, we cannot simply assume they all exist just b/c we have seen one such god. And no amount of theory-ridden explanations will change that or the fact that we have confirmation where Lucifer's Cage is located, in the Judeo-Christian realm of Hell. Case closed. Lucifer1987 21:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, for... We do not actually have such confirmation. We do have lots and lots of mutually contradictory interpretations of the Christian idea of hell, and we have no shortage of in-show evidence that the demon-creation machine and Lucifer's cage are different interpretations of the Christian idea of hell. And I am at a total loss for how Sam and Dean can possibly have met every god that exists in Supernaturalverse. —EllieMurasaki 23:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is now closed, as you have veered off-topic on several instances that have little to no relevance to this issue. The fact remains we cannot make the kind of assumptions you would like based upon the current evidence. While there is a nod to pagan ideas of the supernatural, the overarching and overwhelming consensus is that the Judeo-Christian mythology overrules what pagan gods are present in the Supernatural universe (see Lucifer's effortless slaughter of the gods present in "Hammer of the Gods"). Assumptions and theory, while illuminating and resourceful, are not concrete enough to make definite statements or conjectures of any kind. Sera Gamble has already confirmed that Lucifer's Cage is a part of Hell. Discussion ended. Lucifer1987 00:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

"The fact remains we cannot make the kind of assumptions you would like based upon the current evidence." PRECISELY MY POINT. (I swear it's like arguing with a brick wall.) —EllieMurasaki 01:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Based on the evidence that User:Lucifer1987 has posted, I sincerely agree with his or her comments. On the other hand, spoilers are not Canon; so, any info that hasn't been said in the show itself, is classified as false info. But like User:Lucifer1987 said, Lucifer did tell Dean that Michael banished him into Hell for disobeying God. So, what other facts does User:EllieMurasaki need to see that Lucifer's Cage is in Hell?

- Confused Koopa Kid, September 24th 2010

Alastair was citing orders from on high as the reason he was out of hell more than once in S4, so communicating between Alastair in hell and Lilith on earth was clearly not a difficult task. Azazel had to search for millennia to find somewhere he could speak to Lucifer.

Castiel got into hell with no apparent difficulty; even if he had a fight, humans get into hell all the time with no difficulty at all. Getting Lucifer into hell the first time required another archangel (or two or three, depending on how involved Raphael and Gabriel were). The second time, it required incapacitating three of the four Horsemen.

Castiel got out of hell, Dean in tow, with no apparent difficulty; even if he had a fight, demons get out of hell often enough. Getting Lucifer out of hell the first time required a righteous man shedding blood in hell and his brother killing the first-ever demon and a whole bunch of shit in between including but not limited to the summoning of a a bunch of pissed-off spirits, the summoning of a particular scary demon, blinding a fishing crew, slaughtering sixty-six kids, and who knows what else I can't think of offhand. Getting Lucifer out the second time...judging by the Sera interviews, that ain't happening.

Further, we know the Supernatural powers that be are big on research. I haven't seen the movie Dean and Ruby compared hell to, but Wiki assures me hell in Hellraiser bears very little resemblance to hell in Dante's Inferno. Which circle of Dante's hell, by the way, was Dean in when we saw him at the end of No Rest? In which circle do the tortured learn how to operate whatever kind of gun it is Dean said in Good God that he was in hell when he used it? In which circle do the tortured become the torturers? Having read the Inferno, I assure you the answer to all of the above is 'none'. So comparisons to Dante's Inferno won't get us very far. Comparing to the New Testament, on the other hand, that's a source the show's quoted multiple times, so that might get us somewhere, and I don't believe that the writers don't know that just about everywhere any English version of the NT says 'hell', the word in the original Greek is 'Hades', and that in the one place the English 'hell' is a translation of the Greek 'Tartarus', it's specifically a reference to somewhere angels go, not somewhere dead people go.

If S6 proves that the place Sam spent hiatus is the same place Dean spent the pre-S4 hiatus, I'll come back here and grovel at both your feet and beg your forgiveness. Meanwhile, I can read other folks' user talk pages, and pray tell, where in this discussion have I strayed from the argument? And pray tell, what evidence will it take to convince you two that Lucifer's cage and the demon-creation machine are not the same place?

(Apologies for my temper. Certain persons do not understand that Supernatural night trumps all other activities, however enthusiastic about same I would otherwise be.) —EllieMurasaki 00:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Discussion ended, Lucifer's Cage has been confirmed to be in Hell MULTIPLE times throughout the show and even by the show creators. End of story. Lucifer1987 17:59, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you a SuperWiki mod and I hadn't noticed? If not, you don't have any right to say the discussion's over here. And you certainly don't have any right to say the discussion's over in fandom at large.

Also, Ruby made it pretty clear that the being tortured -> torturing -> becoming a demon path was inevitable for everyone who went to hell, notably including Dean. The last scene of 6x03 made it pretty clear that Sam wasn't on that path. Chalk up another piece of evidence for Lucifer's cage not being the place where demons are made. And on the other side, the sum total is...that the cage and the demon-making machine are both called hell. Yeah. Not convinced. —EllieMurasaki 05:27, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Pardon me, but I don't have to be a "SuperWiki mod" to know when there's nothing more to discuss here, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. And I have every right to cease discussion of a long-foregone conclusion with someone unwilling to see reason and concede the obvious. Whether others wish to continue such a pointless discussion with you is their choice, but I feel I've proven my side and there are even others who have agreed with that assessment, therefore there is nothing that says I have to continue to entertain your rantings and ravings. This discussion's end result has been made abundantly clear, nothing more to discuss. And I'm sure the Administrators are tired of hearing your tired and worn-out rants over nothing. Discussion ended, nothing more to discuss. Lucifer1987 20:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

"Discussion ended." "I will no longer discuss this." Subtle difference. Do you see it?

The mere fact that I exist and I have evidence supporting my point (whether I am right or not) is proof that, one, the answer is neither "obvious" nor "abundantly clear" (note the distinction between those and "obvious to me", "abundantly clear to me"), and two, there is not "nothing more to discuss" (note the distinction between that and "nothing more for me to discuss"). Also, "people agree with me" is not evidence to support "I'm right".

If Missyjack, or other admin who will please identify adminself because Missyjack is the only SuperWiki admin whose admin status I'm aware of, doesn't want me to say anything further on this subject in this forum, then admin will say so adminself instead of relying on you to do it for them, I'm sure. That's one of the raisons d'etre of admins.

Until an admin tells me to move my part of the discussion elsewhere, or until Show or Show PTBs make it clear that the hell Sam was in is in fact the same or part of the same hell Dean was in (and calling both places 'hell' doesn't make them the same, any more than saying Dean spent S3-4 hiatus in Hell means he was in Hell, Michigan), I'm gonna keep talking here anytime I see more evidence for my point and anytime somebody says something here that I want to respond here. That's the raison d'etre of wiki talk pages. —EllieMurasaki 23:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Your so-called "evidence" apparently is not incontrivertable enough to make many others feel that it overrides what is obvious in in the show and from the mouths of the show's creators. Sorry if you feel differently, but your "evidence" just appears irrelevant to the point at hand and does nothing to really advance your position, at least in my eyes. Therefore, I have nothing more to discuss with you. If you choose to keep raving, suit yourself, but don't expect much reaction b/c your tone sounds increasingly irrelevant to the point that was originally discussed. And yes, to me, there is nothing more to discuss here, so it's end of discussion if there is nothing genuine of consequence, which doesn't appear so. Have a nice night. Lucifer1987 04:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

My tone? My tone? Oy. —EllieMurasaki 09:34, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Wow! No offense but just by reading your conversation simply shows how truly dedicated you both are to the show. Although I must agree with Lucifer1987 - He or She has provided accurate information concerning Hell and Lucifer's Cage. And no offense but EllieMurasaki has strayed from the main argument on numerous instances. Here's my opinion on the matter:

Hell and Lucifer's Cage are of the same plane but exist separately, in other words, the place where demons are made is not of the Ninth Circle where Lucifer was kept imprisoned during the fourth season. And in our (Lucifer1987 and Confused Koopa Kid) favor, Dean did say that Sam's Hell would make the time that Dean spent in Hell look like Graceland. Also, Sera Gamble did say that Lucifer's Cage is of the Ninth Circle. So it makes no sense at all to think that Hell and Lucifer's Cage are the same.

Well that concludes my opinion.

- Confused Koopa Kid, Oct 12th 2010

To EllieMuraski: I would suggest you take the hint that most, if not all, of those who have followed our little discussion on the talk page for Lucifer's Cage agreed with my assessment that Lucifer's Cage is located in the deepest part of Hell, as has been said numerous times by numerous people. I would ask that you please quit vandalizing the page itself trying to deny or cast doubt upon this. If you wish to continue to disbelieve, that's your choice, but don't force your unwillingness to realize the facts upon others. Thank you. Let's also not forget some rather obvious quote (in the show and thus incontrivertible):

"Your Hell is gonna make my tour look like Graceland!"

-Dean Winchester to Sam Winchester (Swan Song)

And another:

"...and for that God had Michael cast me into Hell."

-Lucifer to Dean Winchester (The End)

There you have it. Those are just a couple of many. Good day. Lucifer1987 18:01, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Vandalizing my ass. Ever hear of neutral point of view? —EllieMurasaki 18:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, VANDALIZING is exactly what you are doing, spreading your disbelief of the facts simply b/c you refuse to see reason. It is COMPLETELY NEUTRAL to say that it is "implied" to be there. You have no legitimate grievance, and any further vandalism/unnecessary bluster will be reverted. Don't make us involve the administrators in something as petty as this. I suggest you move on and do something more constructive with your time than trying to beat a dead horse. Others have said as much to that effect. Lucifer1987 00:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I do not see that implication. I admit the possibility that you're right, and therefore I haven't edited the page to say you're flat-out wrong. I will not, however, back down from the possibility that I am right, and will keep editing the page to reflect that. And argumentum ad populum is still not convincing. —EllieMurasaki 00:33, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I will keep reverting your nonsense as well, as it has no place on the page as it is "theory". You are "theorizing" that there is no connection between them against all other evidence to the contrary. Therefore, simply b/c you disbelieve the evidence does not make your disbelief suitable for the page's content. I am speaking to an administrator about your refusal to let the issue lay. Lucifer1987 00:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah yeah whatever. Since we've both said our piece to Missyjack, can we let the page be till she looks at it? —EllieMurasaki 00:52, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Your nonsense has no place there unless higher authority deems it to be so. If you want it on there so bad, you should place it in a theory section labeled as such, stating why you think there is no connection and what rationale you have for even posting it. Lucifer1987 00:55, 19 October 2010 (UTC)